On this episode of The Innovators, I sat down with Mitchell Jones, founder of Lava, to talk about one of the least glamorous and most urgent problems in AI right now, getting paid without going broke.

Mitchell is building what amounts to billing infrastructure for AI products. If you are running agents, LLM powered tools, or anything where compute costs change by the minute, you already know the problem. Traditional payment systems were built for flat subscriptions. AI is not a flat subscription business.

Lava sits in the middle. It routes AI model calls through a gateway, tracks real time usage and cost, and lets companies price that usage in a way that actually preserves margins. You can choose how much you want to make per action, per credit, or per customer, and Lava handles the rest, including paying through to the underlying model providers.

What makes this urgent is something most founders are only now learning the hard way. In AI, your best customer can be your worst customer. Power users can quietly rack up massive compute bills while paying the same monthly fee as everyone else. That model worked in SaaS. It breaks fast in AI.

Mitchell’s insight is simple and hard to argue with. AI behaves more like a utility than a software license. Utilities are metered. SaaS pricing is not. Lava exists to close that gap.

We also talked about where the company came from. Mitchell has spent his career deep in payments, running Facebook’s digital wallet in emerging markets and founding a prior fintech company before starting Lava earlier this year. He did not wake up one day and decide to build an AI company. He talked to customers. Over and over. When everyone said they were duct taping Stripe together and hated it, he knew there was a real problem.

The conversation also veered into founder advice, especially for people outside the usual tech pipelines. Mitchell grew up in Dayton, Ohio. His path ran through finance internships, late CS coursework, Dropbox, Facebook, and then startups. His advice was consistent throughout, do not stare at the top of the mountain. Focus on the next step. Compounding effort matters more than pedigree.

Lava has moved fast. The company landed its first customers within months, raised a $5.8 million round, and now works with AI startups and legacy companies trying to shift from flat SaaS pricing to usage based models.

If you are building anything with AI under the hood and have felt that creeping sense of dread when the compute bill hits, this episode will feel uncomfortably familiar.

You can check out what Mitchell and his team are building at lava.so.

I caught up with Marcos Bravo, a Chilean guy living in Portugal, who has spent most of his adult life bouncing between tech, sales, marketing, and whatever paid the bills. He is 46 now. He has a family. And he is in that phase where you look at your work and ask a blunt question: Is this all I am showing my kids, that life is just paying bills.

Marcus is not doing the clean midlife pivot. He is doing the messy version. He wrote a book because he had time, he was unemployed, and he needed to put the stories somewhere or he was going to lose his mind. He got the idea after seeing a tweet about how, with everything going on, we might see another Anne Frank “in our backyard.” That stuck with him. He started writing a kids book, got blocked, then wrote a different story that took shape. It became Ana Luz’s Diary, about a girl named Anna hiding in an attic with her brother and aunt, trying to stay quiet because noise brings the wrong people. He ran it past his daughter, she signed off, and he shipped it.

At the same time, he is doing video work for companies because that is what keeps things running. He is starting an ice cream brand with his wife. He is putting together a punk band in Portugal. He is trying things, not because it is efficient, but because he is trying to figure out what feels like his life. He said he does not want to be a one road guy. When something feels right, he wants to take a shot.

We also talked about why storytelling still matters when AI can generate words all day. His point was simple. The missing part is connection. You can generate a story, but you cannot replace the feeling of a real person looking you in the eye and saying something that lands. He ties it back to work, too. In marketing and sales, if you do not know people, you cannot connect to people. Your story falls flat.

He is also clear-eyed about aging in tech. He worries about how long he can keep doing what he does, and whether the industry will move on without him. His answer is to stop chasing status. He does not want to manage people. He wants to deliver a specific thing well, mentor when asked, and stay useful. He thinks experience will matter again, not as a title, but as real history you can apply.

The part that stuck with me was how he thinks about safety. He does not judge people who stay in the cubicle. He just does not want to end up like his dad, who spent decades in one company and now, at 75, feels like he missed his chance to do more. Marcus wants to look back and say, that was a lot, that was worth it.

He framed his goals in a way I liked. He wants to give his kids a few core memories they will actually keep. A trip to Japan for his daughter. A steak in New York for his son, yes, Peter Luger. He wants those things, and he wants to be able to say his own life was good too. He even mentioned he stopped drinking and still enjoys life, which is its own kind of data point.

This is the whole point. You do not need a clean plan. You need motion. You try things. You keep what works. You drop what does not. You pay the bills, but you do not let that become the only story your kids learn from you. Marcus is doing it in a way that looks chaotic from the outside, but it has a clear center. He is trying to make sure his life is not just a job history, it is a life.

His book is Ana Luz’s Diary, by Marcus Bravo. If you want to see what he made, it is on Amazon.

Transcript

John Biggs (00:27.042)

Welcome back to Keep Going, a podcast about success and failure. I’m John Biggs. Today on the show we have Marcus Bravo. He’s Chilean. He lives in Portugal now. I met him in Poland when we were pros approximately, I think, six years old, I think. That’s what it feels like at this point, right? So welcome, Marcus. You’re an author, you’re a marketer, you’ve done loads of work.

Marcos Bravo C. (00:46.072)

Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

John Biggs (00:55.252)

over the years with multiple clients, multiple places, and now you’re kind of doing your own brand. You’re kind of building your own presence. So why don’t you tell me what you’re working on.

Marcos Bravo C. (01:03.398)

So, well, I like you said, I moved to Portugal from Poland two years already here. And yeah, I needed to start something else. I mean, felt that I was getting old for being the tech guy or the sales guy. And I just thought, well, let’s see what I can do. Right. So a mix of crazy stuff. You try to do everything that you think that you feel that it can.

be sort of meaningful to yourself, but you really realize that you don’t know what’s meaningful to yourself. So you have to rediscover all of that. one of the things I’m doing now, I just wrote a book, which was on my bucket list, I guess. I wrote a book. I’m starting with video again. I started putting together a punk rock band here in Portugal. mean, Jesus, I’ve been trying to do everything just to figure out.

what’s the right thing to do. And when you have a family, you have to figure out how to the bills. So I’m still having an affair with tech. But basically, I’m just trying to still discover things when I’m 46, which is I don’t know if it’s right or not, but it’s weird.

John Biggs (02:06.734)

Mm-hmm.

John Biggs (02:11.011)

What is that impetus to discover as we get older?

Marcos Bravo C. (02:16.756)

I guess I get so used to, well, I have to figure out how to pay the bills and that’s it. I started figuring out, well, what am I showing my kids? Is it all about money? Is it all about just to go through life without trying to not die of hunger? And I wanted to do something that is meaningful for me as well. I had to sort of ask permission. It’s like, do you mind if I don’t do this?

crap, I make less money, but I do something else that might be more meaningful. And that’s what I’m doing. I mean, the whole book came out of almost an accident, just like watching videos of people writing books, trying to come up with an idea. And because I couldn’t write the book that I wanted to write, I ended up writing another book that ended up taking shape. And now it’s on sale. mean, every little step that I’m doing is just sort of showing me something new. And like you said, we’ve been around for a while. We’ve been doing tech.

John Biggs (02:48.429)

Mm-hmm.

Marcos Bravo C. (03:15.374)

all the stuff for many years, but there’s always a space for something new, something better, something meaningful.

John Biggs (03:25.378)

What does it mean to be meaningful, right? So your book is Analyst’s Diary, which is a kid’s book, right? And it’s about a little girl, why don’t you tell us the story?

Marcos Bravo C. (03:37.382)

So basically, Andalus came out, I was writing a kids book, I was writing a bunch of stories, like very cool, fun, weird, scary, whatever. And then when I was blocked, I was like, well, I need to write something else. And I remember seeing a tweet right before started writing. It says like, with all this happening around the world, we soon we’re to have an Anne Frank in our backyard. And I was like, right, well.

What if Anne Frank’s still around? There are many Anne Franks around the world, especially with how things are. So I started to write the story, like, how would I see from maybe like a little bit of a Latin view or like trying to add my own experiences into this little girl called Anna who got stuck in the attic with her brother and her auntie and they’re trying to figure out how to be quiet because noise will bring more people, will bring the bad people.

John Biggs (04:06.926)

Mm-hmm.

John Biggs (04:29.976)

Mm-hmm.

Marcos Bravo C. (04:30.38)

And that ended up taking very nice shape. I started adding all of the things that I knew of storytelling. And I created a story that is maybe not an easy to read story, but it made sense to me and it made sense. mean, my daughter had to approve it. So it made sense to her too. It worked.

John Biggs (04:48.782)

Is the goal to just do this? Is the goal to allow this to be part of your personality, part of how you grow? Do you think it’s Marcos Bravo’s for the rest of your life? Or is it Marcos Bravo who does everything else that you’ve done before,

Marcos Bravo C. (05:11.43)

I think it has to be a mix. The first thing I realized for sure is that I don’t want to be the one road guy. But every time or anytime there’s something that feels good, that feels right. The world, let’s give it a shot. For sure I’m writing more. I love writing and I’ve been writing since I was a kid and this is the first time I actually said, and this is because I was unemployed. I’m like, I have all this time in my hand. I need to do something, otherwise I’m gonna go crazy.

So I need to put stories in there and it felt right and that’s definitely something I want to keep exploring and we’re going to keep doing.

John Biggs (05:52.014)

Tell me about storytelling in general. How do you use storytelling in your career? How do you use it to, well, mean, first off, beat AI, right? Because right now we can blast out. We could feasibly blast out your book if we gave it the idea. We would just blast it out. It wouldn’t be any good. But how do you keep that humanity? How do you keep that aspect of storytelling?

Marcos Bravo C. (06:09.989)

Yeah.

Marcos Bravo C. (06:16.271)

Well, mean, AI, even though it’s been helpful with many things, I I use it quite often for work, but it was a huge threat for me because I mean, my whole career beside marketing and sense of whatever is because of storytelling is because I found that I can tell stories that people want to listen. And rediscovering that people, yeah, they’re okay with that. can create stories in AI like that. But it’s this connection that

is missing, like you and I talking, you and I look at each other and having that feeling, that’s irreplaceable. That’s not going to happen anytime soon. It might happen. Absolutely. mean, anything can happen. But I think the reason people connect to other people is because they see beyond the story, right? They get to feel something because of the story. And I don’t think that’s something AI can really do well.

Especially when you tell the story, can read something fun that the AI created that can come up with super cool ideas. the reason why I keep getting hired for making videos for companies is for this, right? Because I can look at you in the eye and say something that it will get you to think, it will get you to connect, it will get you to relate. And I think that’s the part of storytelling that fascinates me that when you know people, and this is something that marketers and sales, they will definitely know

John Biggs (07:26.52)

Mm-hmm.

Marcos Bravo C. (07:40.632)

you have to know people in order to connect to people. If you don’t know who are you talking to well, your story is just going to fall off the cliff and not going to go anywhere.

John Biggs (07:51.534)

Okay.

Does doing all this stuff reduce you in the eyes of a professional class? I think you and I are similar in that we do a lot of things. I’ve written whatever, I’ve written 10 books, I’ve been a marketer, I’ve been a journalist, I’ve been doing all kinds of things. If you look at my LinkedIn, it’s like a Bible. There’s 50 stories in there. What do you think about that idea that

If you’re not focused on one thing, if you’re not focused on one startup for X amount of time, then you’re essentially wasting your time. You’re not a good, you’re not a professional person.

Marcos Bravo C. (08:35.462)

I think growth cannot be unidirectional. It cannot be just one path. You don’t get to grow that way. You just get to walk. I feel that, remember my first job, there was something that they told us straight away. We only want you for three to five years. We don’t want you more than that. Because then you’re going to burn out and you’re not going be good to us. So commit to work with us for at least three years. And since then, back in 2000, I get to like...

I cannot do something for that long. I kind of focus that much into one thing because then I don’t learn anymore. Right now I get to work with 20 year old people that they’re teaching me how to how they connect, how they write stories. Right. But but that’s the thing. I mean, I I’m proud of my LinkedIn as well. Like, I’m proud of all those that crazy stories that are there. I mean, from beer, a character in Disney World like.

John Biggs (09:17.838)

Mm-hmm.

Marcos Bravo C. (09:30.86)

any random stuff that I in my life has been taking me here. And the place that I am right now, even though it’s been hard the last four or five months, is the place that I want to be. I wouldn’t change it for the world. I am glad of taking detours in easier ways and harder ways. But it shaped what I have now, which is exactly what I want it to have.

John Biggs (09:56.358)

Mm Do you think do you think you’re lucky in that you took that detour? Like a lot of people kind of stay in a stay in a they’re cubicle, right? But I mean, a lot of those people are making $500,000 a year and driving a driving a Porsche, whereas you’re writing books. I’m up here in an attic recording podcasts.

Marcos Bravo C. (10:15.536)

Thanks.

But I guess it will depend. I I think people don’t know any better. And I don’t mean it that in a bad way. mean, my dad worked almost 50 years in the same company, same cubicle, wearing a suit for all of those days, A tie and everything. And now he’s discovering that he had so much more to do. And he hates himself because he didn’t do it before. And he’s getting sick now and he’s 75. And he’s like...

John Biggs (10:41.966)

Mm-hmm.

Marcos Bravo C. (10:46.438)

I don’t want that. want to look back at certain point and say like, Tim, I did so much. That was crazy. I think that will be the ideal thing to say before I leave this world is like, look back and say, that was crazy. But I wouldn’t blame it people, right? I wouldn’t blame it on other people. Like if they want to have one path, it’s safety. And somehow also like...

John Biggs (11:07.476)

Safety, right? Safety.

Marcos Bravo C. (11:13.254)

It’s not ignorance the world I’m looking for. is not my full language. It’s more of like not knowing any better if you know what I mean.

John Biggs (11:21.954)

Well, you don’t know what the alternative is, If your entire life was about business development, you wanting to become a sous chef at a Michelin star restaurant, kind of hard, right? You kind of doing that pivot. Tell me about aging. Tell me about how you feel now. You’re working with 20-year-olds. You’re in an entirely different world to a degree than what we came up with. It was a different environment, different ways of working, different ways of communicating.

Marcos Bravo C. (11:27.878)

Yeah.

Marcos Bravo C. (11:35.182)

Mm-hmm.

John Biggs (11:53.214)

I’ve tried, this is my penance, right, to apologize to all the startups that I’ve frustrated. So, and I know that this sort of gentleness, I think, is more important now than it used to be. It used to be us, were hard charging, except for the crypto bros or whatever on Twitter. But tell me about your feeling about aging into an industry that could easily knock you out of it in the next couple years.

if you’re not careful and if the cards aren’t stacked properly.

Marcos Bravo C. (12:21.379)

Marcos Bravo C. (12:24.954)

I mean, it’s scary for sure. Every day I wonder how many more years of making videos for companies I have or how many more years of knowing enough that people want to learn from you. And that’s one of the things, for example, my last job interview was like, well, we have this career path that we can do.

I don’t want to manage anyone. I don’t want to see level position. That’s long gone for me. I’m happy with where I am. If people want to learn from me, I’m happy to mentor, happy to show my experience, but don’t give me more responsibilities. I’m happy with providing a very specific thing for you. And good luck with that. Here’s what you asked me for. If you want to know more, if I can show you something better, I’ll be happy to do so.

I’m trying to limit my knowledge delivery into like, right, what you want from me? Here it is. Do you want more? Let’s talk about it. I think we will have a of a revival of we want experience. We want people with, and I don’t mean stories or like in the storytelling sense, but with history behind it, right? Like people who would be there. Because after all, you can read whatever you want on AI.

John Biggs (13:30.669)

Mm-hmm.

Marcos Bravo C. (13:38.886)

But if you don’t know what it means, if you don’t know how to do it, if you know how to like where that came from, it’s nothing. So I’m taking it easy. know eventually it just there’s no more taking it easy, right? Eventually, I need to figure out a way to what happened after. I mean, I with my wife, we just started an ice cream brand now here in Portugal. So hopefully that’s going to pick up, right? Like, and I’m applying whatever I know marketing into it. But

John Biggs (13:59.17)

Hmm.

Marcos Bravo C. (14:06.224)

But yeah, because I also know that eventually you will be sort of unplugged from this world of business and tech and whatever. So I’m taking it step by step. I don’t know what’s going to happen next year, especially with this world. But I’m trying to enjoy it. Scary, but I’m trying to enjoy it more.

John Biggs (14:28.856)

How does it feel? mean, you’re from Chile. You’re seeing all kinds of messy stuff. I mean, even in Europe, it’s not the friendliest towards outsiders, How are you dealing with that? How are you using that, your identity to your advantage?

Marcos Bravo C. (14:46.63)

I think eventually, I never sort of introduced my I’m not afraid or embarrassed from my background at all. I’m actually very proud. But is is what happened after I left Chile that built who I am, right? Like until I was 20 years old in Chile, I was just smoking weed, going to uni whenever I could and just party every weekend and whatever. But then then everything took a turn to like, right. More I want to do more. I want to see more. I want to see the world.

Chile just got too small. So I started building something new. So when I meet people from anywhere in the world, now I can say, I’ve been there. Where are you from? Yeah, I’ve been there. I hide this. I cooked your food. I’ve done this. Or I’ve seen people from. So it just opens up a whole new thing. So it’s not just like, this is guy from Chile. I don’t even know if he speaks English. Now it becomes like, all right, I’ve seen the world. I can tell you things that you have no clue. And that changed the perception too.

John Biggs (15:26.478)

Mm-hmm.

Marcos Bravo C. (15:46.008)

One of the biggest thing that I was doing always was trying to connect Poland with the US, even though I’m not American, I knew how to talk to American people. I know how to go to Las Vegas and have drinks and close deals that way, But it was because I saw the world. I had to go out of my shell and see what’s happening outside in order to create not a new me, but a better me or something different.

John Biggs (16:10.414)

Mm hmm. I get it. Interesting. So you got the book, you’ve got the ice cream brand. What else is in your head right now?

Marcos Bravo C. (16:19.695)

Yeah.

Marcos Bravo C. (16:23.684)

I mean, whatever time I have off, I mean, I’m doing video for companies, like I said, right? That’s sort of my main, like, bill payer job. But I still get to play punk rock during the weekends with friends and go to events. I sell the ice cream myself. I don’t sit down in the background. And the rest is just to, I want to make sure that I can deliver a couple of.

good core memories to my kids. I know not everything that you do means anything or something. Right. So I want to make sure that the couple of things that they will remember forever. So I’m trying to figure out. I mean, there are probably already some that I’ve done without really thinking. But I don’t know. I want to take my my daughter to Japan. I want to my son to New York because he wants to eat a steak in this big steakhouse that he knows. And for some reason, he’s only nine. Right. But yeah.

John Biggs (17:11.694)

Peter Luger.

Marcos Bravo C. (17:16.826)

That’s, yeah. So.

John Biggs (17:18.134)

Yeah, when you get out here, I’ll take you.

Marcos Bravo C. (17:21.062)

Yeah, no, I to work with them. I like I can’t wait to actually visit again. But that’s the thing. I mean, I just want to I want to make sure that. I deliver to my family this feeling of like that was cool, that was awesome. But I also want to make sure that I can say also, oh, man, my life was awesome. I enjoyed it till the end. And I think I am doing it. I mean, I. I even stopped drinking and I still enjoy it.

which for me was always, So like all of every little step is being like, it’s getting better. I mean, there are awful times that we all go through. But I think you get to stop every so and so and look back and see how high you are and say like, wow, that road was crazy, but here I am. And then you look up and like, shit, there’s still a lot to go.

John Biggs (17:50.6)

wow.

Marcos Bravo C. (18:17.262)

And then you keep going. those moments that when you stop and turn around and say like, all right, well, it’s been awesome. Let’s keep moving. I think that’s sort of what I’m focusing on right now.

John Biggs (18:29.55)

So book is called Analoosa’s Diary, Marcos Bravo C, which you would look for if you’re looking on Kindle. I’ll put a link to it in the story. But I want people to check that out. Yeah, I wrote my kids two books, but yeah, especially now. I mean, sounds like it’s actually a vital story. Like said, I wrote my kids two books, but I don’t think they even read them. So I think you might have even one up on me, which is pretty cool.

Marcos Bravo C. (18:32.806)

Mm-hmm.

Marcos Bravo C. (18:40.582)

Thank you.

Marcos Bravo C. (18:52.742)

you

Thanks, man.

John Biggs (18:58.638)

Yeah, so this has been great. I’m glad we got to talk for a minute. And I think your view on this whole thing is pretty nice and healthy. Hopefully you don’t hit any walls as you creep up in age. But I don’t think we will. I think we’ll be OK. We made it through this far. think we’ll pull off the rest of the ride.

Marcos Bravo C. (19:14.689)

We’ll get over this.

Marcos Bravo C. (19:22.022)

Absolutely. Absolutely. And thanks for the invitation, I mean, we haven’t catch up in ages and we haven’t seen each other in ages. So it’s good to even through this is cool.

John Biggs (19:31.874)

Mm-hmm. All right. Well, Marcus, thank you for joining us. been great. His new book, Analoos’ Diary, check it out. It’s on Amazon. Pick it up. This has been Keep Going, podcast about success and failure. I’m John Biggs. We’ll see you next week.